Episode 5 · 1 year ago

#5 Resilience from organisational perspective with Simon Western, Ph.D.


“You shouldn’t go straight for resilience

you should have resilience as a by-product”

In episode 5 of JelenaCONSULT Resilience podcast, our topic gets a bit upside down as we tackle two different sides to resilience.

BONUS: You can also find out about our motives for recording this series.

Our guest is Simon Western, Ph.D. who has an international reputation as an academic and practitioner in areas such as coaching and organisational consulting ( In this episode, he inspires us to problematize the concept of resilience in organisations.

Simon argues that corporate world perceives resilience as putting a plaster on an injured worker so they can get back to work as quickly as possible.

We discuss using the word “resilience” as an organisational defense against change and how resilience gets misused and manipulated by some in organisations. How free counseling sessions, mindfulness courses, yoga at work, etc. would not help if managers still demand workers to spend 10 hours a day working. Mindfulness gets a special critical eye in this talk.

Simon also talks – in Lacanian terms – about how resilience can be a symptom.

Resilience never stands alone, he argues. You will hear from our guest how well-being, enjoyment, pleasure, creativity, and innovation fit into the picture of resilience.

Eco leadership is an important step and Simon discusses his theory and practice of eco leadership that can build more resilient teams/organisations/society.

Listen to this inspiring talk and visit for more quality content....


Hello everyone, welcome to Yelena consult resilience podcast. My name is Jelena, passage flights and, together with my colleague Yell and ability and each today I'm pleased and privileged to welcome Doctor Simon Western as our guest. Dr Western has an international reputation as an academic and practitioner in the fields of leadership, Organizational Change and coaching. Simon teaches internationally and has published on leadership and coaching as well. Simon, he is a honorary teaching fellow Tlancaster University Management School, or also honorary associate fellow at the department of Psychological Studies at Burbeck University and send your fellow Bivington University. Currently, Simon Coaches and consults the seals of huge organizations and works on Strengthening coaching practice and theory through his analytic network coaching, and both yelln and me are part of this amazing community network. We might say. Welcome, Simon, and I also wanted to give a shelt out to your podcast, edgy ideas, and I'm really glad. I really love the podcast. They follow it regularly and I'm really glad that you didn't have resilience as the topic yet. So I'm really the like if we can talk about this topic today in the Yamana consult podcast on resilience. So welcome, signed, good to have you. Well, thank you very much, she hall, and you're enough for your lovely introduction. It's very good to be here and looking forward to talking with you both. Good. So I wanted to talk about resilience. I read a lot about this resilience in a geo sector and it's something that is often described to people who have survived the war and violence. And now it's used the since two thousand and twenty four globally for covid trauma, and this is where I ran into this word. So now it's globally a buzz word and I wanted to ask you how do you define it, let's say individually. First, I ran into a recent clean too, a quote by Mark Manson, who said that the resilience. You don't build psychological resilience by feeling good all the time. You will build it by getting better at feeling bad. So I wanted to ask you how do you perceive it, let's say on individual plan? Well, when I hear the word Resilien, see it seems to me it's about having a strength to evercome difficulties. Simply, it's having any capacity to air problems, troubles, struggles and to ye be strong in the face of adversity. I would...

...imagine it to be. And do you think in in a global context, being, for example, and organizations? How does it work? How would you define we had an email ex change before this and I said can I problematize this because I get worried about about the word, about not the word but the way it's used. So I think it's an important concept. I think we all need resilience and I think organizations need resilience plan as Earth needs resilience. But the way organizations use it at the moment, in the corporate world especially, it's it can be a bit like putting a plaster on an injured worker to get them back into the work so they can be more productive as quick as possible. So as used in a way where it's about making workers able to be more productive rather than thinking about resilience in a much wider framework of how do organizations become resilience to climate change? How can they think about there their workers in a more humanist humanistic way. Some sometimes I'm worried that it's just about making them stronger so they can go back to the same old workplace which doesn't change, still create the same problems which made them it in the first place. I would say this is the part of the meaning of resilience, just patching things up before you're strong enough to go go back to to some to getting better. Yeah, and I think, I think that's can be worrying because it means that the organizational culture or the way of working, say, if you imagine Amazon cheating his work as badly on in the big warehouse is. You know, you could you get them medister, or you could get them some counseling, but unless you change the way the warehouses a run, that's the real department and that's a kind of problem organizations really need to address. And residence can be often be used as a way of avoiding doing the the real work. I would say individually, it's a bit related with defenses and how we defend from from anxieties and whether these defenses are more or less useful and whether they're more or less primitive, and in terms of organizations as well. What do you think about that? Can can it be related to organizational defenses as well? Well? I think. I think using the word resilience is an organization defense against change sometimes. So I think they mobilize, they will get you get free counseling sessions or you get mindfulness courses, you get all these yoga at work. Yeah, you know, all these very it's like Google will offer all the all these perks for the job and yet they were still demand the workers to be there like ten to of hours a day and I very high expectations. So it's like you...

...get offered these ideas to resilience, but to do what? To continue to work until you're ill, and and that's a social defense against against facing up to the changes which need to take place. I think sounds like there are word resilience is pretty much money pulated. It is then, you know, and that's not the saying. I really know as a human being, as an employee of an organization and as an organish itself, you know was it is. It's clearly very important. You know, we do. We all have to kind of develop, as it is, but not as a social defense against changing what is needed to be changed. It also suns as I sometimes it's covering up the symptoms in the organizations. Yeah, or for those of you study psycho analysis and the calm, which I do, I would say that resilience can actually be a symptom. It can, it can be kind of a symptom on which the organizations circles around. It's it's tries to create the maximum pressure on workers to produce at their maximum level all the time. And this language is used a lot, you know, it's used about getting the best out of ourselves all the time, and I've been resilient to problems as if it's a good thing. But I question, I wonder by that. Maybe it's a temporary thing, temporary touch maybe what? Let me ask you, why did you choose is it ISS as as a topic for your podcast? Oh, question back to us, very good one, personal and our professional reasons yelling and which is start. Well, it's definitely an interesting question. Somehow we can we see or resilience has answer to the trauma that we all actually have. Things colled and hohold that period of times and then it become kind of buzz word, but as well as very important one. So, as the time is passing, to me it sounds like it's starting to lose, actually starting to change a meaning and, as I said, like to be malused and in a wrong way. And that's why, with our whole this podcast, we wanted to actually to bring back to the the real issue and why Resi. What does it really mean and why it is important, especially while talking about this. Yeah, I'm this last year and this year, and that's why we are also our guests all usually really a great leaders, and as you are, and and we wanted just to see what's your thoughts about that? Sure, and I guess you come from a country which is resilience is very important and the last fifty ideas. Yeah, so, socially, I mean professionally, and also personally for us.

Yeah, we all had great adversities this year and last. All these reasons came together. Yeah, so, I mean I think resilience is very important. I think it gets misused and manipulated by by some organizations and I never think it stands alone. I always think it stands with other things. So I always think about resilience standing with well being, with enjoyment, with pleasure, with with some other word which are just about adverse. In to be resilient is to live fully, I think to be able to access joy, pleasure, creativity, innovation and sometimes in the psycho analytic world we just think about that dark side and the shadow side. I think these other things. I think the desire is very important. I think if you don't have desired and you cannot be resilient. So this is another thing. The way I work with with these terms and these ideas, you really imagine a really important topic about mindfulness, and that would you maybe see something from your own experience? I would really like to hear about yeah, well, mindfulness, it's one of those things which is hard to criticize and you always look guilty when you criticize it. But I do criticize it, not mindfulness itself but the way it's used. It becomes appropriated. So it takes things from the east, taking from Yoga, taking some meditation, it wraps it up in a package called mindfulness, which is many things actually. My mindfulness is enacted in many ways. And then Google or big corporations, they offer their workers its idea from mindfulness in order to make them more productive. It's quite cynical. It's it's it's don't question the politics of the organization don't quite question that the social meaning. Don't question the corporate vision. Just go and spend half an hour being mindful and you can return them and be a cog in the world of the great machine. So that's the criticism of it and I think it when companies bring these things into workplace. On one level you cannot say it's a bad thing. Of course wellbeing as good and it could be helpful, but you have to look systemically, not just worded to individuals. Does it encourage people to question things, to change things, to change the culture, or does it just pacify them? And it's used often to pacify workers? I think yeah, I think you're emphasizing something that is really important, that the discourse behind or around the term resilience or mindfulness or whatever is something that we create socially and also it should be unpacked and the other thing, the other side of it, would be seen, as you mentioned, with desire and joy and something that is also part of the resiliance. So I think it's an important thing to to see the other side or, as you said, to see systemically, yeah, to undrap the discourse and to one ravel...

...with yeah, and, you know, just to go further I you know, I read quite a lot of literature and routers like shuntwn mouth. They talk about the need for antagonism in organizations and antagonism in society. If you're going to have a democratic society, you need antagonism and tensions and when you think about it, mindfulness kind of erodes that is it's like saying step away from that. It doesn't have to, you know, you could be mindfut and you could, you could be resilient and you could gather yourself in order to be strong and and face antagonisms. But often they used to substitute that, they used to be to create a much more conformist organization or conformist culture. And this where is me a lot. I mean in in Serbia. You know from your past generations history. You know when you have a communist totalizing society, it creates a conformist society and that's not a healthy kind of a way of being and it doesn't open open group for questioning or for antagonisms, way where you can actually really wrestle with ideas and, the same incorporate life. They can be very conforming places and that were as me a lot. I would say each of these. Both communism and then later on capitalism also has its own ways of, let's say, diminishing, as you said, mostly in the corporate world and through the corporate world, diminishing, antagonizing and the good sides of democratic society. Yeah, absolutely. I think in any communist world it was is kind of a simpler in a way, because you clearly knew who the big other was and who can taught the major and how we're being conformed, and then you could you could resist in different ways. In near liberalism and capitalism, it's like it's a bit clearer because we're told we're free thinkers, and we are in some ways, and yet there's a real conformity happening. So it's more hidden, although we are all individuals. Yeah, well, individuals, we all got free choice, except we have to kind of behave in this way if we're going to be successful, or behaving this way if we we don't question so much. So for me conformity and is one of the big concerns of society the moment that we don't actually thinking critically or free thinking, and you broke that got what about projections into leadership and how would you define resilience in regards to leadership. Yeah, well, that's interesting. So, I mean leaderships are very complex matter and, as you know, I write big books on it. That's trainer the try and understand it. I mean leaders receive projections, that they receive our desires and they receive our hatred and they would they received the parts of us we don't want and the parts of us we really really want. So they become grandios, that they become heroic, where they become the devil or the bad parent we don't like. So we have a strong reactions to leaders.

Leaders themselves to have to be resident in the sense that they do have to not take all these projections personally. They have to realize that that they will attract certain projections because of who they are. They will attract certain projections because of the role they hold. So if you're an annual, attract certain protections because of your gender, your race as well, so because of your social construct so if you're a woman leader in politics or if you're a male manager of a car factory, you get certain projections because of your role, but also your personality. So each of us, you're both Yelenas, but both of you will get different projections, because you both have different personalities. It's partly understanding on what you bring, why, why you attract certain projections and where you stimulate certain projections, and part of leadership is actually stimulating projections and and doing that for the good of society or for the good a task. You know, a good politician will hold themselves open to certain projections which are useful for society, but often leas tightly unconsciout projections and they mistake them for attacks or they they believe they're very special, people, are very grandios, and then they met they make huge mistake because they they think it's all about them and they become the projections rather than are able to be resilient, hold onto their own being, their own knowledge of themselves, and I make decisions clearly, rather than kind of being wrapped up in these unconscious processes which can be either very damaging to the leader or to their leaders thinking and their judgments. I don't have that made any sense at all, did it? Yes, it did, very much, very much indeed. And do you think it can be developed within leaders? How can they work on their resibilities? I think selfaware Arnesses is absolutely key, you know. So having supervision, having good people around you to advise you, having good self knowledge to going through counseling or going through therapy or coaching, crunching, executive coaching, I mean people, leaders are often used me in this way. I recall one too, executive of a national organization, and she was receiving an awful lot of projections and it was it was interesting because she was a very messianic character. She had a she was like a big, big character, lots of charisma, but she was also a challenging, aggressive character and under pressure she could she could be a bully and it was interesting that she really trusted me and we we had a work with it for two or three years and we had tears, we had kind of deep thinking, we had and we worked through these projections. What was her projections? What was kind of how she...

...managed them? And a lot of it was to do with her past, as we know in psychoanalysis. Know it was a lot to do her childhood. Her relationship to her father was very aggressive and how this came out in the workplace and I was able to work with her through this and separate kind of what was her own family stuff and internal stuff and what was going on at work and she managed really, really well to do that and and be very open and honest with the work workers are about going to have her own what was hers and what was theirs and how they could actually work together. And it we really transformed an organization of culture. Is quite remarkable what happened through that deep personal work. Yes, especially I know the case. Someone mentioned that the organization, but we know it's a very, very huge one. So it was quite difficult to change it right, very anny, and it's not something and it was never like it doesn't go from me to the perfect note. Is always a process, but there was. There's a long shift, there's a longer, you know, over to turn up. Is it that we could see the shift in the change take place and and the business ruls results were were aligned to to that change as well? Yes, the business results always follow when you are taking care of the process, right, we hope so. I think probably not, probably, not always, but mostly for sure. And why we are back at organizations. I wanted to ask you, well, at least me, I perceive Resili is as a kind of a tactical response and something that is short term. But how to make it a strategy, how to make organizations resilient long term? Yeah, I guess the question is, is resilience resilience against what adversity? And I mean these days, to be resilient, I guess also means to be adaptable, because change is happening so fast that we we live in a world of what I'm calling P A PI world, a precarious, interdependent world, because everything is very precarious and we can't escape our interdependences and our connectivity. And you know my theories of ECAL leadership and about ecosystems, and every organization is in this, whether it's a hospital or as a school, or whether it's a bank, or whether it's a global institution or whether it's a startup. Everybody is feeding this kind of pressure of constant chain and and they have to kind of a be able to adapt and adapt fast. Of Resilience, I think, is really to do with building in ecosystems, to distribute leadership, to make your organization more adaptable, and this is why I'm getting a lot of success. He's laved with with the work on equalleadership, because people very very interesting and how to develop their organizations to be able to adapt quickly the change, and that means distributing leadership widely so that you can see change happening at the end of the organization with your customers and and your clients and... can shift a changing environmental technological disruptions, and all organizations have to do this. Would you perhaps explain, because some of the listeners probably have heard about equal leadership and I think it's interesting for people to know. Yeah, I mean for all the relations to be to survive in the modern world. We have a model, and I had of like a chief chief executive and a hierarchy and the board of directors and the Egypt team and a top down model of leadership. And equally ship is is not saying that that that's wrong with the same you have to distribute the ship much more widely. And then there's three premises for equally Shi if it's trying to understand organizations are ecosystems within ecosystems. Now it's they're not closed systems. That they're not. They don't function outside of society or outside of the environment. They're part of the environment and their influenced by the environment, whether it has social and physical right social technical. So then coal yes, the environment affects them. You know, if you're I'm working with a major car company at the moment and they're had to transform their whole business because they have to move from to electric and if they don't do it very quickly, then they die, you know, and this is because of the environmental pressures, regulation pressures, public choice, for you know, public a changing what they desire. So you have to be aware of the external factors. And then internally, and organization is like a living ecosystem as well. So, you know, we we like to draw organizational maps of this department, Finance, department, sales come actually, this all into connected and they have to be much more connected, much more adaptable. To get the best on your workers is it is not to kind of just make them into cogs in the wheel of a machine. is to make them realize their own potential to work in in the way which they have more to autonomy, where they can make decisions quicker. So you have to kind of create this new culture, and this is what you could use. was about creating and culture where people can are more connected, they talk to each other more, they they share best practice more, they share they put the hand up when there's a problem. More so, they're much more kind of a live organizations and they also are alive to what's happening outside the oblation. That's equal leadership and that's what we're working with and now, and it's absolutely vital that we shift from into these organiship cultures. But what you say, for how long does it take for a company to switch to the equal leadership, especially the one who maybe right now messiah or instead having a Massia leadership or something like that? Yeah, it's or control, or even control. It's never it's never a straight switch and as always a process. So and it sounds it's very difficult. It's like people often recognize that they need to...

...switch and then they keep on taking one step forward and two steps back, two steps for good on step back. And and this is a reality. And and what I'm learning is it that you don't we're not talking about a switch from Messiah to the eager leadership or controller to eagerly ship. Equally, ship embraces controller leadership and mass our leadership and Therapist D to ship. It doesn't say, okay, this is a new the new kid on town, the rest of you go away. It says we need. We need control of the ship. We need to be controlling over our resources, we need to be controlling of our finance. We need controller in the right balance. We need therapist leadership, we need good people, managers. We need to get there, polus. In any organization, we need some vision, we need we need some assilaly ship to change the way we do things. We need to kind of a new purpose. So all these, all these are in play. And equally, ship says, how can we get the right balance in your organlationship and how can we understand what what the social forces from outside are demanding of us? And it's like it's like a conductor of an orchestra in a way that it tries to balance see these different forms within an organization. First, not saying get rid of all these others, it's saying we can't be dominated by controller leadership or dominated by messiasp anymore. We have to kind of reduce them, get them in right balance and we have to take an eacaliship overview everything. I really think it's very important to chow and phasize that equal leadership doesn't mean that he's creating the others. Now, yeah, now, and that's really helpful for accusations, because sometimes they panic and I think it wouldn't it can never work, or Utopian idea. But but I say no, you need controls, you know, you need these people. You need you need even if you're going to create a zero carbon orgilation, if you are environmentally concerned, you need controller leadship. To do that. You need to know your numbers, you need to know your outputs, you need to you need to get your your energy efficiencies. Now this takes control, a leadership. You know you need you need to communicate to your people, you need to get the Thera proced to communicate properly and you need to build resilience and you need to kind of a build adaptive adaptability, you know. So all these are needed and it's just but the equalish of vision kind of embraces these. I want to ask you regarding these three types, the Messiah, the controller the therapist, have you seen some new ways of forming during the pandemic core, with this huge disruption we had with the pandemics? Yeah, well, I think it's a very interesting example of one. The demand for equal leadership is like, you can't, you can't overcome the pandemic without thinking about a leadership. You need to get, you know, you need to get so much working together. Yes, you really, you know really, you really have to think about the ecosystems and you have to balance mental health versus physical health. You have to balance kind of the economic versus the the health and the world being. You have to think about kind of internationally. You can't think about Serbior on its own or England on its own or Ireland on its own. You have to think about the international connections and connectivity. So you're really forced to think about equal leadership. And then... see, you see like controller leadership is. It become very important because we have to understand the data. You you know, control of ladships about numbers, it's about data, it's about you know, and you have to kind of really understand the data well to understand how this virus is impacting on us. So you see control a leadership very, very strongly. You see therapist leadership, you know, huge kind of wave of people helping each other mental health, up health, mental health APPS, well being. You know, you see a huge drive. Their good communication has been vital. When you get leaders who don't have therapist leadership skills, and have bad communication has direct impact on how the health of the nation. So this is been important and you we don't have enough messiah. No, people can criticize mass out, but now we need a messiah kind of we people in new visions and new thoughtnership how we're going to build back in a way which is a better society, better the environment. We're seeing some of it, you know, we see some changes with Joe Biden and the g seven. There they start. This is on the table now. The the gender is there. Whether they step up to the mark is there. But you also see you also see equally ship not just an international grass which level. So you see we saw mutual mutual aid organizations, grass whose people knocking on people's doors, who had covid leaving food, helping each other. So you see this grassroots movement as well changing. So that was interesting, I think, and that's what you could leadership. You know, we had a similar grass roots with the we call them the visionaires BEFO, who made the probably they call them the visiers. Oh yeah, yeah, the boys were yes, it community organized. They had d printers, so they very fastly started to produce these and to deliver them to hospitals and where it's needed. An example of these grass roots movements that's kind of came up. I mean people just took on authority. Yeah, while it was needed, or so. I think it's also good example of equal leadership. Very good exappened and you know, a lot of my work developing equalision has been the study social movements and how they, these grass food movements, create change in society and I think we can learn a lot for lot from these activities. I wanted to ask what what is in Europe being on a well balanced really in the back to the office? Well, like what's your organizations teak into account? Will be back going back to the office at all at the end? Yeah, well, I think we will and I think it will be balanced. Like you say, I don't think it'd be all at home or all at the office. So I think clearly it will be balanced and different organizations have different demands. So I think it's always going to be tailor to the specific you know, if you're a school, if you're a university, if you're a car manufactturer, if you're a hospital, there they all have different needs. I think it's been...

...quite healthy and not to disrupt the idea that we have to be in the office. I think that's a very healthy thing. I mean it's kind of crazy idea that you have to kind of get up in the morning, at four o'clock in the morning to get a train to London and then arrive at kind of eighty o'clock and travel across London and then sitting the Office for nine o'clock and never see your children or you know that. These ideas of having to be present in your office are very antiquated. They come from a past age. So I'm glad that that's disrupted. But I really also believe that this facetoface, communal kind of activity, that the idea that we do so much work informally, and I think what people don't understand that the work play this is how much work is done informally. This is another letter idea for meeting leadership is that, you know, people think that everything's made done in formal meetings, when that we know actually it's a lot about informal relationships. Morale is a lot about how you got on with your colleague and your workplace, having complays and sharing information. So much information you shared through just you general talk. So these informal kind of facetoface gatherings are missed on zoom, we do, Zoom, you stop and then we don't go for a coffee with our colleagues now. So these informal spaces, I think, need to be recovered. I'm hoping they'll be really nice balance where you can work at home or flexibly, where you can, you know, spend more time as a family and not waste petrol and jumping cars all the time in creep traffic jams. But also I do really believe that you need sort of communal spaces and facetoface meetings and to creep this informal learning and sharing and mobilizing good will and the good society. I also agree with you it's a nice this disruption and we have the opportunity for the vision to come up. How are we going to settle this, this office time and home time, and it's a good that we have the opportunity to redefine it. And there are a lot of projections about the leaders, whoo will do it? Yeah, yeah, and there's I'm hoping that kind of employees will also to take up sort of equally ship and mobilize themselves and I make claims know because as a when you think about the work place, it's been quite brutal, even if you're on a very good salary, and one of the you know, I work in some of the corporate banks and things and put on very good Santarus, but it's kind of what's the point when you don't see your children? Now you go to work at seven in the morning and you come back to seven at night, and it's so common for many people in the city of London and places and it's not a healthy way to live. Once again, you're talking about the balance. Yeah, all important to do. I would also connect it with the balance that you mentioned before between when we are talking about his doings, between this urge to overcome adversity very quickly and, for example, use defenses from anxiety or whatever, and then the other side of it, the balance between also to have this joy and desire that you mention. Yeah,...

...and I I think in I think it's interesting that there's two ways of Understanding Consultancy and coaching and even management, and it's I talk about the wound itself and the celebrate itself, and you often get hyperst or positive psychology, what I call the happiness imperative. You have to be happy, you have to be positive if you have to, you know, and that's kind of that creates ill health as well, because it creates two high expectations you can never live up to. You always just satisfied because you're always trying to chase something which is impossible to to have, like permanent happiness. Now, so that that case of pressure. On the other hand, we have we have people who always pathologizing and looking at his shadow side, and I think you know that there's a real important way of working where we don't hide the shadow side, we face up to the shadow side and we look at desire and enjoyment and unconscious enjoyments, where pleasure comes from. And it can be as simple as like, you know, going for coffeewey colleagues, which you only realize you miss when you're trapped at home on zoom. Yes, so actually through coaching to integrate wound itself with the celebrate itself. Yeah, and so often they get split off and we just feel pressure to be one or the other, you know, and you you get people who are always talking about the wound itself, about their hurts and why the world's unfair and where they get stuck in in patterns, and you get people who always hyper positive and they drive you crazy because they there's a kind of a plastic smile on her face and always trying to be upbeat, and you know it's very challenging. You get a lot in America people really having to put on a performance of being positive because that's what's expected of them, and that that's very draining as well. I think, with the resilience as well, there's one side to it that we in the discourse noticed last year, this side that you need to to gather your strengthen to overcome adversities, and then now it's perhaps time for for the other side to show up and to perhaps integrate these two sides absolutely. And if you think about it, you can't be visiting unless you tap into your pleasure, your desire. You know, you you can't be a whole person or a whole ogdation if you're only kind of fighting adversity all the time. You know, to be strong enough to fight diversity you have to find some creativity, some desires, some energy, some libido, inner motive, yeah, or a vision, as you said, in organizations, yeah, meaning in your works, vision, deep meaning, purpose. All these things kind of as a byproduct, create resilience. I mean in some ways I think that was alience. You shouldn't go straight for residence, you should. You should have resilience as a byproduct. If you have a well balanced life, if you ridge the wounded and celebrate itself, if you are...

...fulfilling some desires, if you have companionship and be calling, you will be resilient. Yes, good advice for people on how to build it. There's often talk about how to build it. Yeah, so that don't build it by trying to build it, build it by as a byproduct or something else. Yes, I think it's a nice way to wrap up with this idea that you had. I think Sarah has been really lovely talking to you both. Yes, thank you time. It was really a good dog. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

In-Stream Audio Search


Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (5)